Saturday, June 03, 2006

How was this?

I will let the hand speak for itself but should anyone have folded to a huge $180 bet on that flop?

POKERSTARS GAME #5146435900: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/06/04 - 01:23:07 (ET)
Table 'Sapientia II' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: SirFWALGMan ($183.85 in chips)
Seat 2: govi514 ($103.30 in chips)
Seat 3: sigmanuelder ($123.45 in chips)
Seat 4: PrimeGator ($45.15 in chips)
Seat 5: faye ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 6: CENTER62 ($45.70 in chips)
Seat 7: ThaEZLife ($46.05 in chips)
Seat 9: nuts69 ($164.60 in chips)
CENTER62: posts small blind $0.50
ThaEZLife: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SirFWALGMan [2d 3d]
nuts69: calls $1
SirFWALGMan: calls $1
govi514: folds
CENTER62 said, "bring the hands this way <------"
sigmanuelder: raises $4 to $5
PrimeGator: calls $5
faye: calls $5
CENTER62: folds
ThaEZLife: folds
nuts69: calls $4
SirFWALGMan: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [Kd 5d 3c]
nuts69: checks
SirFWALGMan: bets $178.85 and is all-in
sigmanuelder: calls $118.45 and is all-in
PrimeGator: calls $40.15 and is all-in
CENTER62 said, "GL ALL"
faye said, "what?"
CENTER62 said, "this is gonna be intense"
faye: calls $93.50 and is all-in
nuts69: folds
nuts69 leaves the table
*** TURN *** [Kd 5d 3c] [Kh]
*** RIVER *** [Kd 5d 3c Kh] [6s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SirFWALGMan: shows [2d 3d] (two pair, Kings and Threes)
sigmanuelder: shows [As Ah] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
sigmanuelder collected $49.90 from side pot-2
CENTER62 said, "WOW VN!"
faye: mucks hand
sigmanuelder collected $160.05 from side pot-1
PrimeGator: mucks hand
sigmanuelder collected $184.10 from main pot
CENTER62 said, "hey sig"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $397.05 Main pot $184.10. Side pot-1 $160.05. Side pot-2 $49.90. | Rake $3
Board [Kd 5d 3c Kh 6s]
Seat 1: SirFWALGMan showed [2d 3d] and lost with two pair, Kings and Threes
Seat 2: govi514 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: sigmanuelder showed [As Ah] and won ($394.05) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 4: PrimeGator mucked [Ad 8d]
Seat 5: faye (button) mucked [3h 5h]
Seat 6: CENTER62 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: ThaEZLife (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: nuts69 folded on the Flop


Anonymous Anonymous said...

your a donk

11:47 PM

Blogger DP said...

An anonymous attack... wow, that takes guts.

12:04 AM

Blogger April said...

i'm a little drunk right now, but..

a) the hell are you hoping to hit calling with that hand in EP?

b) the hell do you think is going to call your flop bet?

12:09 AM

Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

We would have made over 80 bucks if we hit the flush. The point and concept behind the hand was for NOBODY to call. Not for four people to call which was a little much. The AA guy was WAYYYY behind when he called too. lol. Someone folded a King. It was a crazy hand. IMHO nobody should have called that bet. Let alone 3 peeps. Although I did disagree with Fluxer at the time of the play. Interested in opinions though.

12:14 AM

Blogger Veneno said...

lmao..lessons learned...

12:14 AM

Blogger AlCantHang said...

Holdem Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 3c Kd 5d

3d 2d 1.95%
As Ah 16.46%
Ad 8d 29.27%
5h 3h 50.85%

7:56 AM

Blogger Fuel55 said...

Overbets look like bluffs to most of these low level players. Use the overbet when you have the NUTS not a draw. Several pieces in my blog on topic.

8:56 AM

Blogger Wes said...

Open push? What are you representing here? When was the last time you played 55 or 33 like this? I would guess never. Everyone with a better hand than you is going to call here. This is definately -EV.

9:45 AM

Blogger CJ said...

I'm not sure what you mean by, "We would have made over 80 bucks if we hit the flush."

You didn't even have the best flush draw. You were third of the three made hands and 2nd of the two drawing hands.

I'm sure you're point was to get everyone to fold, but that's the problem with these massive overbets with weak hands... you're only going to get called by hands that beat you (or in this case, a shortstacked player who suddenly has odds to call to the nut flush).

I would imagine these disasters with the "overbet for value" happen a lot more often than is posted by those who try it.

10:16 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think you made a big mistake on this play.

There are much better spots to try and make a move and with five players seeing the flop you are definitely going to get action from at least one, if not more.

You saw the flop and whiffed, if you get priced in to take a shot at the flush on the turn than maybe you stay, if not take the five dollar hit and muck.

10:33 AM

Blogger DP said...

3d 2d 1.95% -- Why, that's not good?

10:42 AM

Blogger Eric a.k.a. Bone Daddy said...

Waffles, everyone here is wrong {sidenote, I'm wrong alot, so everyone may be correct via that double negitive thingy}, again you have proven that you will play any hand aggressively, You have us all set up now. Did this hand really happen, or are you setting/sinking the hook deeper.

P.S. you have also proven that you have some kind of distane for your money.

10:47 AM

Blogger DP said...

By the way, this play was my idea, since I was sweating Waffle...

I figured it was a good idea to stick it all in to try and force only a made hand to call, if someone had a big enough hand to call off their entire stack with. There was about $25 in the pot on the flop, before the all in bet.

I intended for the all in to force someone else that had a higher flush draw to fold for his entire stack by exerting the maximum amount of pressure (all in for anyone), so I thought the 3d2d flush draw would be live, but I think that assumes the person with the higher flush draw acts before the person with the made hand so they're not priced in (that's the only flaw I see).

If we bet less, we're usually still committed with a paired flush draw on the flop but it would be exerting less pressure.

If just AA had called, we're a slight favorite with the paired flush draw on the flop.

Excluding the other flush draw, the percentages to win on the flop are 36.10% (us with 3d2d), 17.05% AA, 46.51% 5h3h. Of course, a short stack called all in with the nut flush draw, so for the main pot the percentages were: 1.95% (us with 3d2d), AA 16.46%, Ad8d 29.27%, 5h3h 50.85% but for the side pot of $270, the other percentages apply (minus a few percent for us, since 2 diamonds were dead).

Even though another higher flush draw ended up calling, we would still win around $90 if a diamond hit but, as I said, since it was an all in bet, I didn't intend another flush draw to call in the first place.

11:04 AM

Blogger DP said...

Eric a.k.a. Bone Daddy: Waffle didn't think it was a good idea to go all in -- you're safe. Lol.

I, on the other hand, think it was a good play for the reasons I described =)

11:08 AM

Blogger Marxst1 said...

If this is indicative of your play waffles... I can't wait to try you heads up... lol

12:07 PM

Blogger ScurvyDog said...

I don't know why everyone is criticizing this play.

He had to call pre-flop the first time because of the huge implied odds in playing 2d3d from early position and then he had to call the re-raise because he was getting almost 5-1 on his money, and you have to call any time you're getting 5-1, even if your equity is only ~6% or so. It's just a law, even if it doesn't make any sense mathematically.

The rest is just bad luck that all those stupid donkeys with better made hands and stronger draws called.

2:04 PM

Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

Al.. Take out the A8d, which had no money and really should not have called. Anyway.. It was a weird hand and no way was it expected to go four ways.

pokenum -h 2d 3d - as ah - 3h 5h -- kd 5d 3c
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing 3c Kd 5d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3d 2d 326 36.10 574 63.57 3 0.33 0.363
As Ah 154 17.05 749 82.95 0 0.00 0.171
5h 3h 420 46.51 480 53.16 3 0.33 0.467

2:07 PM

Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

Actually Wes, I would always play my set that way.. that is how I make money.. heh.

2:07 PM

Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

CJ. The nut flush draw had no money. If the flush hits we make eighty bucks on the hand. It was an interesting hand anyways.

2:09 PM

Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

Ooh Sarcasm Scurvy! It becomes you. lol.

Anyway.. interesting feedback on a VERY interesting hand..

2:11 PM

Blogger CJ said...

For the record, you were just 30% to win the side pots. And so you invested $183 to win $210 (the two side pots, right?). That's a less than 1 in 3 shot at a $27 profit but a 7 in 10 chance at losing $183.

If that's "mixing it up," I'll take my boring poker any day of the week.

Here's how I profit at the NL tables: win big pots but lose small ones.

7:14 PM

Blogger DP said...

And here's how I profit at the NL tables: win peoples money.

4:47 AM

Blogger Drizztdj said...

"We would have made over 80 bucks if we hit the flush."

So, what hands are you putting any potential callers on before you shove?

This type of random "I don't care about the money" betting isn't optimal despite the excitement of the variance.

There's definitely validity in playing power poker but why not a check-raise and add some folding equity to the mix?

If you try to stack players with every bet you might as well go back to playing blackjack.

8:08 AM

Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

Thats not the idea Drizz.. I totally agree with you there..

12:35 PM

Blogger HighOnPoker said...

I can appreciate what Fluxer was thinking behind the hand. His thought process is very logical. The only problem is that it doesn't work here. Theoretically, it is a good move because of his description on its face. You force out any weak hands, and only get called by a strong hand, which likely at the very least means your flush draw is live.

The problem is that it doesn't work. It might work some of the time, but you see the problem here. You get a shortstack who is going to call with anything playable. You got an AA in there that is going to call too. And here is the other issue. If you are worried about another flush draw, that means that 2 out of your 9 outs are gone.

So, theoretically, an interesting play. Practically speaking, though, it won't work, because the other players are not necessarily going to play into your theory.

In that regards, a lot of the comments are right about overbets appearing as bluffs, which further handicap this type of play.

Basically, there are just too many unknown variables for this play to be a winner overall. But I give you an A for effort.

3:47 PM


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