Thursday, July 27, 2006

Three Hands

I want to review three hands. The first is the one Wes mentioned. I am in EP, raise my AQo, and get reraised. Let's play Wes's favorite game. What could he possibly have. AK but why re-raise? AA again most people are just going to call. So the most likely hand in my opinion is a pair less than Aces. So why should I re-raise when I know I am slightly behind? I think that would be stupid Wes. I saw a flop. I hit my Ace. I trusted I was ahead. I played the hand perfectly and got two outered. Oh well. I bet every street pre-flop, flop, turn, and even the river. We will get back to that in a minutte.

Now I would like to review a nice read I think I made. I was play a "Wes" type player that puts you on a hand range and will not think outside the box. I knew this guy was a good player from watching him. He raised 1$ before me. I re-raised $5 with pocket rockets. Now normally this would be a stupid move however I knew that this guy would put me on a small pair. He chose the range of hands I would re-raise five dollars and ruled out aces and kings. The flop came Kxx and from his read of lower pockets he felt he was ahead. I was then able to stack him.

Now back to my MTT. I think I misplayed one portion because of frustration. I could have cold called the river and had around 4K left. Now that would have sucked but at least I would have been in the game and able to possibly come back. I put the guy on kings. I roped him in and had him bent over.. and then I not only let him go but gave him a fifty and told him to call me later. I need to realize as long as I have chips I am able to do amazing things. So next time I will just cold call the river king. I will go with my read. I will then have minutes to hours of calling this guy a fucktard until I bust.


Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

oh and before you whine Wes.. I actually do respect your game even if I disagree with some of the things you say.

2:02 AM

Blogger Iakaris aka I.A.K. said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6:17 AM

Blogger slb159 said...

Don't play AQ...period.

6:36 AM

Blogger Iakaris aka I.A.K. said...

I deleted the comment above after reading the previous post and comments, then re-reading this one.

Here's where I disagree with you - and take it from the source obviously, if any of you disagree, no worries it'll just help me to think this through "out loud" - I do tend to reraise with AK, primarily to drive out weaker hands, represent a strong holding to back up my image post-flop and get information on the opponents hand, and how much he likes it pre-flop.

That said, I don't play AK well post-flop, and I know that.

I also almost always make people who raised pay to see the flop when I hold AA. If I am going to get cracked by a set or two pair, I want that guy to have paid up front for his good luck. Does that mean sometimes smaller pots with bullets? But it again gives you a lot more information about what the guy holds heading into the flop.

How does this relate? I think it was possible he could have turned over either Aces or AK - the argument against Aces is that he would likely push on the turn. I think a lot of people will re-raise preflop with either of those holdings. That's where Wes' comment about re-reraising helps you. He'd likely push in response and you would let AQ go with most of your stack alive and well.

And again, sick fucking rivering, I am sorry that happened to ya.

6:42 AM

Anonymous nijle said...

Strictly talking cash games here i always try to suck someone out when they put me on a lower hand than i actually have. If its a great hand. Take this example from last night:

I had pocket Queens, and the flop comes 88Q So i flopped the boat (no one raised pre flop). everyone ends up checking to me and i bet out 1$, 2 people call, turn is 88Q K (its a rainbow no flushes here), 1st guy bets out 3$ other 2 fold and its to me and i raise to 5$ he calls. Last card is a 88QK 3, he checks it to me. I bet out 3$ (the remainder of his stack), and he insta-calls it.

He flips KK and i go down to his higher boat.

Now maybe my mistake was not betting bigger early on but i was trying to suck him out especially if he hit a pair to pair with those 8's and thought he had a great hand.

So i pose this question (strictly speaking cash games). How can you know when you should play it weak and try to suck them out, or bet aggressive and try to get them to fold before they river something to take you down?

My observations are: If there is a lot of cash in the pot after the flop and i think i'm ahead, i try to go for it. If there isnt much in there i try to suck out someone and hope they dont river something better. Plus on the suckout you can sort of feel them out on how they bet especially if you are in position.

7:06 AM

Blogger Drizztdj said...

Waffles you need to incorporate modesty into your game.

Otherwise you're going to get burnt out again.

Seriously, this isn't an FPS or MMORPG where the fastest finger/most powerful weapons/best specs always wins.

Calling people fucktards for "sucking out" on your premium pairs then playing 62o to crack someone's AA is hypocritical.

Play your game, and stop spending so much time blasting the game of other people.

You'll be a much better player after you do this.

7:58 AM

Blogger Garthmeister J. said...

I have begun to fold AQo when in position if someone ahead of me raises. Weak? Maybe. I do agree that re-raising is potentially the other possible move. If you just call you don't know where you are. If an A comes down, does the other guy have AK? Even AA? Even worse... what if a Q comes down? Do you like your hand enough to get jiggy?

Of course there are actions you can take on the flop to attempt to find out where you are, but it can be expensive. You have to be able to raise a potential continuation bet, unless you are determined to float and attempt to take away the pot on the turn or the river... again, dangerous moves unless you know your opponent inside an out.

OK, I'm rambling. In a nutshell, I just don't like AQo that much in NL cash games when there is a raise in front of me.

- fin -

8:35 AM

Blogger Wes said...

If you call, you make your "slight underdog" a 70-30 dog because you will only continue after the flop if you miss. Overcards like AQ and AK equity are seen through seeing all five card, not just three. Although, I do like it that you and others are obviously brainwashed from the television numbers and think that if you see three cards with overcards vs. an underpair you are still in a coinflip situation.

9:32 AM

Blogger Iakaris aka I.A.K. said...

Wes, did I miss your point, or did you mean to write, "you will only continue if you HIT" implying that most people play AK/AQ only to the flop, and forfeit the probability of hitting turn and rivah. AK/AQ look decidedly less attractive if you don't have the stomach to bet out for a late hit.

Strong arguement for clarifying his range before the flop comes down.

10:01 AM

Blogger Wes said...

Yeah, I meant only if you hit.

10:08 AM

Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

EXACTLY why I did not want to re-raise Wes. I KNEW I was behind. I KNEW I was slightly behind. He had me slightly covered. I did not have to coinflip for my entire stack pre-flop. I could have folded but I thought that would be too weak as I put him on KK. Actually in hindsite it would have been a fine fold. I got a little stubborn. I would have had no problem folding my hand and having plenty of chips left if I missed this flop. I agree with your 70/30 stats and all you have said. In talking about this probably a fold is prudent. However since I decided to play and thought I was behind and actually put him on a range of hands that to me had a low probability of being AA/AK but a high probability of 22-KK I just want to see a flop and then get away from it if I miss.

Are people afraid of playing a flop? Why with a large stack and a moderatly strong hand would I want to risk more chips when I know I am behind. The flop came and in one of the poker moments of clarity I KNEW I was ahead. Now I had seen a flop fairly cheaply and sucked out. Now I was the 80/20 or 90/10 favorite and the power was mine.

Let me also say I would probably totally agree with you if I was a small stack, if I had no chips in relation to the blinds, if it was early in the MTT, but it was the wrong situation to race in.

10:20 AM

Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

Garth: I was priced in. I had already invested 3BB and he only wanted another 2BB to call. Again cheap. I know I am behind. I know I have a chance to suckout on an ace and so I played.

Slb: Dont Play.. Period. heh. Just fucking with you man.

Ick and Wes: If I put him on a hand and am 99% sure I am right AND I am behind that hand then why re-raise?
I am willing to trust my instincts here.

10:22 AM

Blogger Wes said...

OK, you didn't include the fact of what he reraised to. I presumed it was a standard 3x more your raise, but apparently he made some small raise, which I suppose is fine to call if he prices you in.

Nevermind waffles, you are a poker god and we are all lemmings. You dominate.

10:35 AM

Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

lol. I love you Wes. Please stroke my Ego all the time. lol. It honestly was a feel play. I knew for a fact I was ahead and i also knew for a fact I was rivered which makes my Hemlouth like brat fit all the worse at the end.

10:38 AM

Blogger Garthmeister J. said...

Ditto on the "amount of the raise"... I was assuming it was much larger than what he actually made. Makes it all the sicker that he hit his K on the river... though hopefully he will assume that he is playing correctly and continue spewing chips in the future.

10:40 AM

Blogger DP said...

Waffle: "So why should I re-raise when I know I am slightly behind?"

Wes: "If you call, you make your 'slight underdog' a 70-30 dog because you will only continue after the flop if you miss."

I think this is a style issue. First of all: Waffle, next time you have Ax and you get re-raised, and you think they have KK - fold, as that would have avoided this situation entirely. Then again, if you think he's going to continue with KK when you hit an Ace, then maybe calling isn't so bad.

Now, what Wes says is true -- you'll miss the flop 2/3 of the time; but I say it's a style issue because you're investing much less than all in preflop, and that's without taking into account implied odds, so that makes up for the lowered equity (assuming you fold after missing the flop).

Now if Waffle could just stop making these weak plays entirely in NL cash games, he would be better off, I think.

3:49 PM

Blogger DP said...

Note: I generally don't agree with Waffles end game MTT strategy, since I like to go for the win, rather than waiting on the sidelines to move up in the payout.

3:51 PM


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